(03-25-2021, 09:40 AM)Guest Wrote: This is ridiculous. If you're pissed with where you matched, do better and work harder. It's not like all 50 spots at top programs were filled my chairmens' children and its not like a department cares who your parents are when they need you to help run the service. See the mess that's happened at Columbia for that very reason (not to say the resident wasn't also a great candidate). Curious to see what happens at Brown. Great candidate and great PD, but a difficult situation for the same reason.
It's similar to how the children of doctors were at an upper hand getting into med school and legacies have an upper hand getting into undergrad. There's no way to truly judge someone's character without lots of exposure so personal connections will always matter more. Be better. Do better. Don't blame the world for acting on you. Blame yourself for not acting on the world.
This thread has turned into personal attacks and a pity party. Sorry to the applicant who was called out. I'm sure you'll make an awesome resident and a great surgeon
Can someone repost the spreadsheet link?
(03-25-2021, 09:40 AM)Guest Wrote: This is ridiculous. If you're pissed with where you matched, do better and work harder. It's not like all 50 spots at top programs were filled my chairmens' children and its not like a department cares who your parents are when they need you to help run the service. See the mess that's happened at Columbia for that very reason (not to say the resident wasn't also a great candidate). Curious to see what happens at Brown. Great candidate and great PD, but a difficult situation for the same reason.
It's similar to how the children of doctors were at an upper hand getting into med school and legacies have an upper hand getting into undergrad. There's no way to truly judge someone's character without lots of exposure so personal connections will always matter more. Be better. Do better. Don't blame the world for acting on you. Blame yourself for not acting on the world.
This thread has turned into personal attacks and a pity party. Sorry to the applicant who was called out. I'm sure you'll make an awesome resident and a great surgeon
I agree with the sentiment about personal attacks and do think blaming people for their privilege is wrong, but I feel a need to specifically disagree with this "be better, blame yourself for not acting on the world.." idea, as if those who fell down their lists or didn't match were just being lazy and not working hard enough.. this sentiment blatantly ignores the fact that the world acts on millions of people every day and holds them down despite their best efforts. Society is largely not meritocratic. For example - sure, not all 50 spots were taken by direct legacies, but I'm going to guess there was a big privilege differential from the beginning of life for a much higher portion of those folks than the rest, in some form or another. It's just the way the world works and it's perfectly legitimate for people to be frustrated by that. It's also legitimate for more privileged folks to feel imposter syndrome for the same reason.
All I'm saying is, some are trying and working as hard as they can, but it's just different when you don't come from a background with connections. I feel lucky to have matched as I know some incredible people who didn't. Are they lazy, did they not act on the world enough? Just as it's wrong to blame privileged applicants for what they got, it's equally wrong to say people who weren't as happy with their matches are entirely to blame for that themselves.
(03-25-2021, 10:53 AM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 09:40 AM)Guest Wrote: This is ridiculous. If you're pissed with where you matched, do better and work harder. It's not like all 50 spots at top programs were filled my chairmens' children and its not like a department cares who your parents are when they need you to help run the service. See the mess that's happened at Columbia for that very reason (not to say the resident wasn't also a great candidate). Curious to see what happens at Brown. Great candidate and great PD, but a difficult situation for the same reason.
It's similar to how the children of doctors were at an upper hand getting into med school and legacies have an upper hand getting into undergrad. There's no way to truly judge someone's character without lots of exposure so personal connections will always matter more. Be better. Do better. Don't blame the world for acting on you. Blame yourself for not acting on the world.
This thread has turned into personal attacks and a pity party. Sorry to the applicant who was called out. I'm sure you'll make an awesome resident and a great surgeon
I agree with the sentiment about personal attacks and do think blaming people for their privilege is wrong, but I feel a need to specifically disagree with this "be better, blame yourself for not acting on the world.." idea, as if those who fell down their lists or didn't match were just being lazy and not working hard enough.. this sentiment blatantly ignores the fact that the world acts on millions of people every day and holds them down despite their best efforts. Society is largely not meritocratic. For example - sure, not all 50 spots were taken by direct legacies, but I'm going to guess there was a big privilege differential from the beginning of life for a much higher portion of those folks than the rest, in some form or another. It's just the way the world works and it's perfectly legitimate for people to be frustrated by that. It's also legitimate for more privileged folks to feel imposter syndrome for the same reason.
All I'm saying is, some are trying and working as hard as they can, but it's just different when you don't come from a background with connections. I feel lucky to have matched as I know some incredible people who didn't. Are they lazy, did they not act on the world enough? Just as it's wrong to blame privileged applicants for what they got, it's equally wrong to say people who weren't as happy with their matches are entirely to blame for that themselves.
This is true to some extent. Arguably IMGs are the hardest working/most qualified applicants on the trail.. spending years in the lab putting out 100+ papers, spending time as a clinical fellow as well is not uncommon. See the IMGs who matched extremely well this year (UVA, etc.) with zero connections to speak of, just with sheer hard work. I matched mid tier years ago.. and tbh I would never go through what these IMGs go through.. if you want it so bad you have to put in an exponential amount of work and even then it may not come to fruition. You’re not lazy, but there’s some working much harder than you for sure and you’ll see this as a resident.
“I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are.”-Mewtwo
(03-25-2021, 11:48 AM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 10:53 AM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 09:40 AM)Guest Wrote: This is ridiculous. If you're pissed with where you matched, do better and work harder. It's not like all 50 spots at top programs were filled my chairmens' children and its not like a department cares who your parents are when they need you to help run the service. See the mess that's happened at Columbia for that very reason (not to say the resident wasn't also a great candidate). Curious to see what happens at Brown. Great candidate and great PD, but a difficult situation for the same reason.
It's similar to how the children of doctors were at an upper hand getting into med school and legacies have an upper hand getting into undergrad. There's no way to truly judge someone's character without lots of exposure so personal connections will always matter more. Be better. Do better. Don't blame the world for acting on you. Blame yourself for not acting on the world.
This thread has turned into personal attacks and a pity party. Sorry to the applicant who was called out. I'm sure you'll make an awesome resident and a great surgeon
I agree with the sentiment about personal attacks and do think blaming people for their privilege is wrong, but I feel a need to specifically disagree with this "be better, blame yourself for not acting on the world.." idea, as if those who fell down their lists or didn't match were just being lazy and not working hard enough.. this sentiment blatantly ignores the fact that the world acts on millions of people every day and holds them down despite their best efforts. Society is largely not meritocratic. For example - sure, not all 50 spots were taken by direct legacies, but I'm going to guess there was a big privilege differential from the beginning of life for a much higher portion of those folks than the rest, in some form or another. It's just the way the world works and it's perfectly legitimate for people to be frustrated by that. It's also legitimate for more privileged folks to feel imposter syndrome for the same reason.
All I'm saying is, some are trying and working as hard as they can, but it's just different when you don't come from a background with connections. I feel lucky to have matched as I know some incredible people who didn't. Are they lazy, did they not act on the world enough? Just as it's wrong to blame privileged applicants for what they got, it's equally wrong to say people who weren't as happy with their matches are entirely to blame for that themselves.
This is true to some extent. Arguably IMGs are the hardest working/most qualified applicants on the trail.. spending years in the lab putting out 100+ papers, spending time as a clinical fellow as well is not uncommon. See the IMGs who matched extremely well this year (UVA, etc.) with zero connections to speak of, just with sheer hard work. I matched mid tier years ago.. and tbh I would never go through what these IMGs go through.. if you want it so bad you have to put in an exponential amount of work and even then it may not come to fruition. You’re not lazy, but there’s some working much harder than you for sure and you’ll see this as a resident.
At what point does the expectation become ridiculous though? Arguably, IMGs could be great residents without having to sacrifice 5 years of their lives doing research fellowships. That "requirement" is purely systematic. Many more applicants would look like this on paper if they took half a decade doing research and a significant number of people don't have the financial means to make that work logistically.
(03-25-2021, 12:04 PM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 11:48 AM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 10:53 AM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 09:40 AM)Guest Wrote: This is ridiculous. If you're pissed with where you matched, do better and work harder. It's not like all 50 spots at top programs were filled my chairmens' children and its not like a department cares who your parents are when they need you to help run the service. See the mess that's happened at Columbia for that very reason (not to say the resident wasn't also a great candidate). Curious to see what happens at Brown. Great candidate and great PD, but a difficult situation for the same reason.
It's similar to how the children of doctors were at an upper hand getting into med school and legacies have an upper hand getting into undergrad. There's no way to truly judge someone's character without lots of exposure so personal connections will always matter more. Be better. Do better. Don't blame the world for acting on you. Blame yourself for not acting on the world.
This thread has turned into personal attacks and a pity party. Sorry to the applicant who was called out. I'm sure you'll make an awesome resident and a great surgeon
I agree with the sentiment about personal attacks and do think blaming people for their privilege is wrong, but I feel a need to specifically disagree with this "be better, blame yourself for not acting on the world.." idea, as if those who fell down their lists or didn't match were just being lazy and not working hard enough.. this sentiment blatantly ignores the fact that the world acts on millions of people every day and holds them down despite their best efforts. Society is largely not meritocratic. For example - sure, not all 50 spots were taken by direct legacies, but I'm going to guess there was a big privilege differential from the beginning of life for a much higher portion of those folks than the rest, in some form or another. It's just the way the world works and it's perfectly legitimate for people to be frustrated by that. It's also legitimate for more privileged folks to feel imposter syndrome for the same reason.
All I'm saying is, some are trying and working as hard as they can, but it's just different when you don't come from a background with connections. I feel lucky to have matched as I know some incredible people who didn't. Are they lazy, did they not act on the world enough? Just as it's wrong to blame privileged applicants for what they got, it's equally wrong to say people who weren't as happy with their matches are entirely to blame for that themselves.
This is true to some extent. Arguably IMGs are the hardest working/most qualified applicants on the trail.. spending years in the lab putting out 100+ papers, spending time as a clinical fellow as well is not uncommon. See the IMGs who matched extremely well this year (UVA, etc.) with zero connections to speak of, just with sheer hard work. I matched mid tier years ago.. and tbh I would never go through what these IMGs go through.. if you want it so bad you have to put in an exponential amount of work and even then it may not come to fruition. You’re not lazy, but there’s some working much harder than you for sure and you’ll see this as a resident.
At what point does the expectation become ridiculous though? Arguably, IMGs could be great residents without having to sacrifice 5 years of their lives doing research fellowships. That "requirement" is purely systematic. Many more applicants would look like this on paper if they took half a decade doing research and a significant number of people don't have the financial means to make that work logistically.
Yasargil believed residents should spend nearly a decade in the lab before they are allowed to touch his patients.. just as he did. It was a culture shock for him when he started in Arkansas. It’s an old school mentality for sure. IMGs have the additional barrier of not being a citizen as well.. which takes years to secure a green card, etc. I personally think after 50 papers and a few years there’s diminishing returns short of a high quality PhD that takes more time understandably. If a US grad can pull this sort of thing off with 1-2 years off... they’ll have their pick of program.
Imagine being bitter enough to shit talk someone else anonymously. I know how that'd make me feel and I can only hope those people all learn to have a bit more empathy before they become fully-fledged physicians.
(03-25-2021, 08:18 AM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 07:57 AM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 01:13 AM)Guest Wrote: Every year there are neurosurgeon kids that apply. Not really imposter syndrome but no way to truly be in equal playing field with other applicants. But anyone in that position would take the advantage. You can be an excellent applicant but the only way to get rid of the advantage is to change your name. And that may not work since you were raised around neurosurgeons so people will visibly recognize you as their friends kid. Some places think it’s cool to train “so and so’s” kid so no matter what it’s a huge edge and you won’t be judged in an unbiased way. I think the applicants in that position are aware and avoid applying to places where their parents work etc to decrease the nepotism/unfair talk.
In defense of some that what you are espousing. BNI match had possibly the most impressive application of all applicants this year.
Others failed step 1, couldn’t get into a US, medical school, had no research to speak of, and matched at a placed affiliated with their chairman father.
BNI also matched the son of a Neurosurgeon this year, idk what you're talking about
BNI also matched a toxic individual who comes from extreme privilege, blatantly cheated the system twice during the pandemic, and was hated by tons of people on the interview trail. This person is also constantly on this forum talking up BNI and causing drama. It's easy to hide being toxic on virtual interviews. I feel sorry for that intern class.
(03-25-2021, 02:46 PM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 08:18 AM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 07:57 AM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 01:13 AM)Guest Wrote: Every year there are neurosurgeon kids that apply. Not really imposter syndrome but no way to truly be in equal playing field with other applicants. But anyone in that position would take the advantage. You can be an excellent applicant but the only way to get rid of the advantage is to change your name. And that may not work since you were raised around neurosurgeons so people will visibly recognize you as their friends kid. Some places think it’s cool to train “so and so’s” kid so no matter what it’s a huge edge and you won’t be judged in an unbiased way. I think the applicants in that position are aware and avoid applying to places where their parents work etc to decrease the nepotism/unfair talk.
In defense of some that what you are espousing. BNI match had possibly the most impressive application of all applicants this year.
Others failed step 1, couldn’t get into a US, medical school, had no research to speak of, and matched at a placed affiliated with their chairman father.
BNI also matched the son of a Neurosurgeon this year, idk what you're talking about
BNI also matched a toxic individual who comes from extreme privilege, blatantly cheated the system twice during the pandemic, and was hated by tons of people on the interview trail. This person is also constantly on this forum talking up BNI and causing drama. It's easy to hide being toxic on virtual interviews. I feel sorry for that intern class.
https://media.tenor.com/images/40771ad51.../tenor.gif
(03-25-2021, 02:46 PM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 08:18 AM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 07:57 AM)Guest Wrote: (03-25-2021, 01:13 AM)Guest Wrote: Every year there are neurosurgeon kids that apply. Not really imposter syndrome but no way to truly be in equal playing field with other applicants. But anyone in that position would take the advantage. You can be an excellent applicant but the only way to get rid of the advantage is to change your name. And that may not work since you were raised around neurosurgeons so people will visibly recognize you as their friends kid. Some places think it’s cool to train “so and so’s” kid so no matter what it’s a huge edge and you won’t be judged in an unbiased way. I think the applicants in that position are aware and avoid applying to places where their parents work etc to decrease the nepotism/unfair talk.
In defense of some that what you are espousing. BNI match had possibly the most impressive application of all applicants this year.
Others failed step 1, couldn’t get into a US, medical school, had no research to speak of, and matched at a placed affiliated with their chairman father.
BNI also matched the son of a Neurosurgeon this year, idk what you're talking about
BNI also matched a toxic individual who comes from extreme privilege, blatantly cheated the system twice during the pandemic, and was hated by tons of people on the interview trail. This person is also constantly on this forum talking up BNI and causing drama. It's easy to hide being toxic on virtual interviews. I feel sorry for that intern class.
LMAO I thought I was the only one who picked up on this. Glad to see the sentiment is shared. I overlapped with this individual many times and saw them blatantly skip meet and greets and even show up late to actual interview days - and one was at a top choice of mine. Like what the fuck how lazy can someone be on a virtual interview trail? Feel sorry for the interview slots taken by up them that other applicants would have been infinitely more appreciative to receive. Hope BNI is happy with their decision.
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